Copy hierdie skakel. Skep n nuwe tab of bladsy en plaas dit in die internet adres area om die advertensie te sien. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO-gBzTzha0
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Thread: Straf God ons sonde vandag nog?

  1. #11
    Hein

    Ek haal aan, bl 8 van jou opstel.
    "Word ons sondige dade vandag nog gestraf of nie?
    Wat ons uit die vorige dele en Ou Testamentiese era afgelei het, is dat God wl ons sondes
    vergewe, mr dat daar gevolge op aarde gaan wees as ons sondes doen of pleeg, of
    ongeregtigheid dryf. Soos U reeds gelees het, trek God niemand voor nie..., nie eens Sy
    gesalfde Dawid nie! "

    Jy verwar gevolge van 'n mens se dade en God se straf. As jy oor 'n rooi verkeerslig ry en 'n ongeluk maak is die ongeluk die gevolg van jou roekelose aksie en nie God se straf nie. God het jou reeds vergewe omdat jy roekeloos was, maar die gevolge daarvan moet jy ongelukkig dra. Wat jy saai sal jy maai.

    Op bl 9 maak jy dieselfde fout.
    "My soeke juis na dit en hoe dit kwansuis sou verander het in die nuwe testament? En die
    vrae het by my begin opgekom... Is dit waar of nie? Straf God nog steeds Sy kinders as
    hul verkeerd optree, of het Christus l ons straf gedra, sodat ons nie gestraf gaan word nie?
    Is daar gevolge vir ons dade hier op aarde? Waarop ons probeer afstuur met hierdie vrae,
    is of Christus vir ons dade vergifnis bewerkstellig het en of daar nog nagevolge is vir ons
    oortredinge hier op aarde. Vat Christus se kruisdood die nagevolge van ons oortredinge hier
    op aarde weg, of nie?"

    Nee, Christus het nie die nagevolge van ons sonde weggevat nie. Die nagevolge is nie straf van God nie, dit is die gevolg van jou daad. God se wette is dan juis om jou teen die gevolge van jou sondes te beskerm.
    As die ongeluk by die robot God se straf is dan sal elke mens wat oor 'n rooi lig ry in 'n ongeluk betrokke wees. God is mos regverdig of hoe?

    Ek sien uit na jou voorbeeld van God se straf. Kom ek help jou, wat is God se straf vir moordenaars?

    Chris

  2. #12
    Hein, kom ek wys jou hoe misleidend jou redenasie is.

    Ek dink ons stem saam dat:

    1. God almagtig is en mense kan straf as Hy sou wou.
    2. God regverdig is en as Hy sou straf sou elkeen dieselfde straf vir dieselfde oortreding ontvang het.
    3. God perfek is en die perfekte straf vir elke oortreding sal kan uitdink.

    Nou hoe is dit dan moontlik dat God nie perfekte en regverdige straf toepas nie. Dit is tog duidelik aan die stand van die samelewing dat min mense godvresend lewe. Die straf soos jy dit noem is mos nou glad nie effektief nie of mis ek iets?

    As God mense reg gestraf het sou Hy dit perfek gedoen het en sou elkeen van ons perfek in lyn volgens Sy wil geleef het.

    Dit is nie die geval nie. Hoe verklaar ons dit?

    Chris

  3. #13
    Hein

    Ek sien nog geen voorbeeld van jou oor God se straf nie.

    Onthou net terwyl jy iets probeer uitdink, dit moet regverdig wees, dit moet perfek wees, en dit moet uit liefde wees. God steel en moor nie, die satan doen. Satan en sy demone doen ook nie God se vuilwerk nie. God kan ook nie kwaad stuur om goeie goed te laat gebeur nie, dit impliseer goed is afhanklik van kwaad. Sterkte Hein.

    Die enigste rede hoekom ek aanhou is omdat ek weet hier is nog mense wat so mislei word deur organisasies, dat hulle uit onkunde en vrees nie die liefde van God kan sien nie.

    Chris

  4. #14
    Ja Hein ek verstaan dit ook so.
    Inteendeel juis die liefde tussen my en my seuns het my ook meer van God se hart laat verstaan so ook die straf wat ek soms moes gee wat nie lekker was nie.

  5. #15
    'n Slim man het eendag gese, 'n tradisionele christen laat nie toe dat die Bybel tussen hom en sy tradisies kom nie. Ek sien dit al meer. Die gevolg daarvan sien ons in Mar 7:13, So maak julle dan die woord van God kragteloos deur julle oorlewering wat julle bewaar het; en dergelike dinge van dieselfde aard doen julle baie.

    Daar is 'n Ou Testament en 'n Nuwe Testament. Ons lewe tog vandag in die NT, hoekom is dit so moeilik vir kinders van God om te besef dat ons nie deel het aan die OT nie maar deelagtig is aan die NT deur Christus?
    Die boek Hebreers verduidelik spesifiek die OT en NT oorgang.

    Heb 10:15 Ook die Heilige Gees betuig dit aan ons. Eers s Hy:
    Heb 10:16 Dit is die verbond wat Ek met hulle na daardie dae sal sluit, s die Here. Ek sal hulle my wette in die hart gee, in hulle verstand sal Ek dit skrywe.

    Ons, wedergebore kinders van God staan tog nou onder die nuwe verbond, die NT. Nou, wanneer God, Sy wette in my hart gee beteken dit ek het nie meer 'n boek, opstel of predikant nodig om my binne God se wil te hou nie. M.a.w. Hein se vrees dat kinders van God nou losbandig en in sonde gaan lewe en dan skotvry gaan afkom is ongegrond. Kinders van God kan dit doen ja, Paulus se in 1Co 10:23, Alles is my geoorloof, maar nie alles is nuttig nie; alles is my geoorloof, maar nie alles stig nie. Hein, so ja kinders van God gaan Heilig lewe omdat ons wil, ons wil God se wil doen, ons wil doen wat in ons harte is. Nie omdat ons vrees vir God se straf nie, maar omdat ons God liefhet.

    God heers met liefde, satan probeer met vrees heers.

    Chris

  6. #16
    Hein

    Ek sien nog nie een voorbeeld nie. Chris1, help bietjie vir Hein uit, asb man.

    Kom nou ons almal weet tog dat elkeen van ons gereeld onwillekeurig sonde doen. Dan moet daar tog erens 'n voorbeeld wees, of iemand met 'n getuienis?

    Chris

  7. #17
    Hein.

    Wat is jou mening oor my siening nl dat die "straf" jou eintlik seen en wel in die opsig dat dit jou nader aan God bring as jius verder. Selfs waar mens afvallig word en dan die nabyheid van God mis as "straf"(omrede jy Hom eintlik verjaag).
    As jy dit reeds gese het erens doen weer so asb.

  8. #18
    Chris1

    As jy nou vir ons 'n hedendaagse voorbeeld van so straf kan gee, dan sal dit dalk vir almal hier duidelik word.

    Chris

  9. #19
    Iets om oor te dink.

    The national debate on the ethics of corporal punishment rages on, and pro-spanking Christians continue to claim the Bible encourages or even commands such behavior. I’ve argued that the withering findings of social science regarding spanking should be taken seriously and have warned that one shouldn’t build an entire ethic from Proverbs, a book of general wisdom rather than universal commands.

    In the last week, however, I have dug deeper into the few Biblical texts that directly address corporal punishment. It turns out that much of what pro-spanking Christians teach has no Biblical basis and often directly contradicts what the text actually says. So spanking proponents don’t actually read these Biblical passages as literally as they say they do. If they did, they wouldn’t be defending their views on Twitter. They’d be complaining to the warden.

    Let’s assume for a moment that those claiming to read these passages literally are correct. Here are five myths of “Biblical spanking” and what the Bible actually says:

    1. Limit the age and number of swats when spanking – Evangelical leader James Dobson says parents shouldn’t spank kids younger than 15-to-18-months old and “most corporal punishment [should] be finished prior to the first grade.” He and others have also popularized the “two-smacks-max” approach to limiting the number of swats. These restrictions, however, are found nowhere in the Biblical text. Rather, these teachings are often drawn from social science, a field that is dismissed by the same individuals when convenient.

    In the Bible, there is no upper or lower age limit found in the Biblical text. However, the Bible does speak about corporal punishment for adults at which point it imposes a “40 lashes, but no more” restriction (Deuteronomy 25:3).

    2. Aim for the buttocks – Christian pastor and author John Piper says, “Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped . . . It is not beating. It is not abuse. There is a clear difference.” But the Bible says that the rod of discipline is for “the backs of fools” (Proverbs 26:3; see also Proverbs 10:13 and Proverbs 14:3). If you read the Bible’s spanking texts as literal, timeless commands, aim for the back not the butt.

    3. A belt, paddle, or hand will do – As Christian author Chip Ingram writes, Christians should “use a wooden spoon or some other appropriately sized paddle and flick your wrist” when spanking. But the Bible only instructs the use of two items for corporal punishment—the “rod” and “whip” (see various passages).

    Some Christians promote a “rule of thumb,” which says that Christians should use a “switch” that is no bigger in diameter than one’s thumb. But this is not found in the Bible either. The “rod” in the Bible can refer to a range of items, including a shepherd’s staff or tree branch. No matter which definition you choose, there is no diameter restriction provided in the text itself.

    4. Never leave a mark – Many Christian advocates for spanking talk about “swatting” a child so that it stings, but doesn’t leave a mark. But this is a modern American idea of spanking that has no root in the Scriptures. As Proverbs 20:30 says, “Blows and wounds (bruises*) scrub away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.” The kind of discipline that cleanses the heart, according to the text, actually does leave a mark. The only restriction seems to be that punishing with the rod of discipline shouldn’t kill the person or cause dismemberment or permanent damage (see, for example, Proverbs 23:13).

    5. Don’t hit out of anger – As Tom Frye, founder of Family First, wrote recently at Crosswalk.com, “A spanking (or any form of discipline) should never be delivered in anger. This may require a ‘time out’ for the parent to cool down so that loving discipline can take place.” But if the discipline of children by parents is a mirror of God’s discipline of God’s children, as pro-spanking Christians claim, then this is a farce. The discipline of God throughout the Scriptures isn’t absent of anger. It actually flows from God’s righteous anger.

    As William Webb, professor at Tyndale Seminary and author of Corporal Punishment in the Bible says, “This sort of ‘love but no anger’ approach is a great plank within the platform of today’s spanking advocates. Unfortunately, it simply is not a biblical concept.”

    Conservatives claim the Bible when they argue for corporal punishment, but what they are actually doing has little to do with the Biblical text. If you read the spanking texts literally, Webb says, you should respond to a person’s bad behavior by using a tree branch to beat them on the back until bruising occurs. This is irrespective of age, but in adulthood a whip can be used for up to 40 lashes.

    Pro-spanking Christians speak of soft, swift swats and restrained wrist slaps. They talk of anger-less discipline with an explanation beforehand and perhaps a comforting prayer afterwards. This behavior is a modern invention and nothing at all like the Bible descriptions of corporal punishment. Even though some accuse anti-spanking Christians of “domesticating Scripture,” as Rachel Marie Stone writes, “contemporary American corporal punishment is already highly domesticated.”

    The spanking restrictions that conservative Christians promote as Biblical would sound bizarre to those from the ancient Jewish cultures from which these passages arise. “Biblical spanking,” if one reads and applies these passages literally, is much more severe than the modern Western behaviors. Given that these practices derive almost from the book of Proverbs (selectively peppered with social science) and are out of synch with the Christian virtue of love, it seems Christians need fresh ways to read and understand these texts while remaining faithful to the Bible.

    One such path forward is understanding the “rod” verses as general exhortations for parental discipline rather than literal commands to physically strike children. This seems entirely possible to me. Other approaches, like William Webb’s, may be helpful. He posits that the Bible indeed allows for corporal punishment but should be read in light of the redemptive movement of the Bible.

    More work needs to be done. This conversation needs our best thinking as part of an ongoing conversation. Our children deserve at least this. And our credibility requires nothing less.

  10. #20

    Ek kan nie verstaan nie help hier

    My opinie iir die draad is soos volg

    As jy nie weet wat sondes is nie kan jy mos nie gestraf word nie...

    As jy in die woord handel en lewe dan behoort jy te weet wat sondes is so God waarsku jou daarvoor.

    Maw ons straf ons self, karma soos doe ooste dit noem, en die woord s dieselfde wat jy saai sal jy maai.

    So eenvoudig.

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