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Thread: Ominous endtimes signs

  1. #11
    Hallo Chris,
    Ek stem saam met jou dat dit God se plan is, dat ons as Sy kinders moet regeer en die aarde moet vul met Sy heerlikheid. En dit gebeur ook. Maar jou getalle bevraagteken ek ten sterkste.

    2 BILJOEN CHRISTENE?:
    Jy toon aan dat daar vandag 2 Biljoen Christene is, oftewel 30%. Ek gaan baie sterk met jou verskil, omdat ek dit elke dag in die sendingveld beleef, met die volgende redes. Mense kan hulself maar Christene noem, maar net opregte weergebore Christene, gelei deur die Gees van God is Sy kinders. Rom 8:14.
    Onder die 2 Biljoen mense wat jy Christene noem is Rooms Katolieke, Jehova getuies, Coptic Christene, Koue Christene, Lou Christene, ander vermengde gelowe wat hulself Christene noem ens, ens. Bring jou getalle af na 10% en ek sal eerder saamstem, want ek werk elke dag daarmee op die sendingveld.
    Dan bly daar 90% oor, oftewel 6.3 Biljoen van die 7 Biljoen mense wat dit nie gaan maak hemel toe nie...
    Ja, Christene het vermeerder, stem saam, maar so ook het die getalle van ongereddes vermeerder...


    GOD SE PLAN OF NIE?

    Jy toon aan dat die verdrukking nie God se plan is nie?
    Ek haal jou woorde aan wat jy skryf:
    Die wereld en satan wil graag he ons moet glo, die verdrukking is God se plan en dat dat christenskap aan die kwyn is

    Kom ek lig jou in, alles wat opgeskryf is in Openbaring, is God se fyn uitgewerkte plan. Om te sę dat dit nie God se plan is nie, is om te sę dat God nie in beheer is nie. Elke liewe ding wat gebeur in Openbaring is God se plan met die aarde en die mense wat daar woon.
    God toon aan in Opb 2:10 dat mense gaan ly vir Sy Naam en selfs gedood word. Die belofte wat God gee is dat ons slegs die tweede dood sal vryspring en dis al belofte in die verdrukking. God vra ons om vas te hou aan die geloof.
    Rev 2:25 Hou maar net vas wat julle het, totdat Ek kom.
    Rev 2:26 En aan hom wat oorwin en my werke tot die einde toe bewaar, sal Ek mag oor die nasies gee,
    Rev 2:27 en hy sal hulle regeer met ‘n ysterstaf; soos erdegoed word hulle verbrysel, net soos Ek ook van my Vader ontvang het.


    Dis die belofte, maar hul gaan deur die verdrukking gaan....
    Die 7 seels en die 7 trompette, wat blaas, die 7 laaste plae kom nie van satan af nie Chris, dit kom van God af. Hy voer dit uit. Dis Sy fyn uitgewerkte plan, wat gaan gebeur in die laaste 7 jaar op aarde. God eindig dit, niemand anders nie. Dus as Jy sę die verdrukking wat oor die aarde kom nie God se plan is nie, dan lees jy nie die Woord nie. God se plan is opgeskryf in Openbaring, tot in die fynste detail.
    Elke perd wat in Openbaring 6 uitgaan, gee God die toestemming voor. Selfs die mag wat gegee word aan die perde, word beperk deur God.

    Hoe kan jy die volgende aanhaal Chris?:
    Wat die oordele aan betref is meeste reeds afgehandel, die res is van toepassing op mense wat hulself beskikbaar stel vir die bose en verseker nie vir die kinders van God nie. Ons kan mos nie glo ons is geheilig en geregtig voor God deur die bloed van Jesus en dan nog glo dat God ons uitlewer aan die satan nie?

    Die oordele word uitgegiet op die HELE AARDE, MET AL SY INWONERS. Of sien jy dat kinders van God op ‘n ander plek gaan bly Chris?
    Watter oordele in Openbaring is reeds afgehandel Chris? Het die 7 jaar al aangebreek Chris?
    Of waar kom die mense wat onthoof is, omdat hul nie die merk van die dier nie vat nie vandaan Chris? Wie is hulle Chris?
    Daar mag sekere kinders van God wees wat deur God beskerm gaan word, maar nie almal nie Chris. Almal gaan nie die verdrukking ontsnap nie.


    DIE SIELE WAT ONTHOOF IS:
    Hier is die vers wat aandui van die siele wat onthoof gaan word in Openbaring. Jy toon aan dat al die kinders van God niks gaan oorkom in Openbaring nie. Ek het nuus vir jou.
    Rev 20:4 En ek het trone gesien, en hulle het daarop gaan sit, en aan hulle is die oordeel gegee; en ek het die siele gesien van die wat onthoof is oor die getuienis van Jesus en oor die woord van God, en die wat die dier en sy beeld nie aanbid het nie, en die merk op hulle voorhoof en op hulle hand nie ontvang het nie; en hulle het geleef en as konings geregeer saam met Christus die duisend jaar lank.

    Kinders van God gaan deur erge verdrukking gaan Chris, maar jy toon aan hul gaan nie? Watter Bybel lees jy?

    OORWINNING, WATTER OORWIINING CHRIS?
    Chris, jy toon aan dat Openbaring die volgende aantoon:
    “Die eindtyd is nie n tydperk wat satan in beheer is en afbreek nie, dit sal 'n tyd van oorwinning op oorwinning vir die kinders van God wees, totdat God se heerlikheid die aarde vul en al Jesus se vyande 'n voetbank vir sy voete gemaak is.”

    Nee Chris, dis nie wat ek lees nie. God laat satan toe om sekere goed aan te vang in Openbaring. Ja, satan word deur God toegelaat om dinge te doen wat hy nog nooit voorheen gedoen het of kon doen nie.
    Mat 24:12 En omdat die ongeregtigheid vermeerder word, sal die liefde van die meeste verkoel.
    Mat 24:13 Maar wie volhard tot die einde toe, hy sal gered word.
    Mat 24:14 En hierdie evangelie van die koninkryk sal verkondig word in die hele węreld tot ‘n getuienis vir al die nasies; en dan sal die einde kom.
    Mat 24:15 Wanneer julle dan die gruwel van die verwoesting, waarvan gespreek is deur die profeet Daniël, sien staan in die heiligdom—laat hy wat lees, oplet—
    Mat 24:16 dan moet die wat in Judéa is, na die berge vlug;
    Mat 24:17 wie op die dak is, moet nie afkom om iets uit sy huis weg te neem nie;
    Mat 24:18 en wie op die land is, moet nie omdraai om sy klere weg te neem nie.
    Mat 24:19 Maar wee die vroue wat swanger is en die wat nog soog, in daardie dae.
    Mat 24:20 En bid dat julle vlug nie in die winter of op die sabbat mag plaasvind nie.
    Mat 24:21 Want dan sal daar groot verdrukking wees soos daar van die begin van die węreld af tot nou toe nie gewees het en ook nooit sal wees nie.
    Mat 24:22 En as daardie dae nie verkort was nie, sou geen vlees gered word nie; maar ter wille van die uitverkorenes sal daardie dae verkort word.


    SELFS God gooi Sy skale van grimmigheid uit oor die aarde.
    Hoekom? OM DIE BEWONERS VAN DIE AARDE (ALMAL) OP DIE PROEF TE STEL. HUL GELOOF TE TOETS.
    So wat is die oorwinning dan Chris? Die oorwinning is die ewige lewe in die hemel, en om saam met God te wees vir ewig. Nie dit wat jy aantoon nie Chris.
    Waar sien jy in eindtyd Openbaring dat die kinders van God die aarde gaan oorwin in Openbaring??

    Ek hoor graag van jou?
    Hein

  2. #12
    Hein

    Dit help nie om oor die getalle te twis nie, dit word algemeen aanvaar dat 2biljoen plus mense Jesus bely. Maak dit 800 miljoen as dit jou sal laat ophou stry, die punt is God se heerlikheid is besig om die aarde te vul.

    Hein dan se jy: "Kom ek lig jou in, alles wat opgeskryf is in Openbaring, is God se fyn uitgewerkte plan."
    Jy sien Hein, dit is nou hier waar ek en jy hemelsbreed verskil. Jy wil my kom vertel dat my Vader vir ons 'n hel op aarde voorberei het, dat elke bose daad van mense, satan en diere, 'n fyn uitgewerkte plan van my Vader is. Jy wil my vertel dat alles wat op aarde gebeur God se plan en wil wees. Dus die dogtertjie wat verkrag en vermink word is God se wil. Die weerlose ou mense wat in hul huis aan die brand gesteek word is Sy wil. Almal wat ter wille van Sy naam onthoof is, was Sy fyn uitgewerkte plan. Ek is eerlik as ek se ek verstaan nie hoe jy my Vader so kan beledig nie. Ek aanvaar dit is 'n populere godsdienstige uitkyk maar waar kom dit vandaan? Ek verwerp dit met minagting.

    Jy kom se God beheer alles volgens Sy fyn uitgewerkte plan. Dus die mense wat nie tot bekering kom nie is dus ook volgens God se plan. Hulle gaan dus nou met die dood gestraf word omdat hulle deel was van God se fyn uitgewerkte plan? Nee Hein, die enigste plan wat ek hier sien is satan wat God se kinders mislei om skeiding tussen hulle te bewerk.

    Openbaring 2 en 3 verwys na 7 gemeentes wat in daardie tyd bestaan het, dit is spesifieke boodskappe aan elkeen gerig.

    Die sewe jaar is reeds verby Hein, dit was vir die Jode in Jerusalem wat 'n vloek oor hulself gebring het. Die sewe jaar verdrukking wat jy so graag wil he, word nerens in die Bybel genoem nie, dit word afgekei vanaf die 70ste week in Daniel 9.

    Hein God laat nie satan toe nie, God het die outoriteit vir Sy kinders gegee en hulle bemagtig die satan wat hulle mislei. Presies soos in die paradys.

    Die gedeelte in Mat 24 verwys na die gebeurtenisse met die Jode 70nc, dit was 'n profesie vir die disipels maar vir ons is dit geskiedenis. Vers 34 se tog duidelik dat die geslag nie sal verbygaan voor dit gebeur nie. Jesus het dit in ongeveer 30nc gese en mooi 40 jaar later gebeur alles net so in Jerusalem. Die tempel is vernietig, die oorgang van offer na genade het gebeur. Die volmaakte offer is gebring.

    Mat 24:34 Voorwaar Ek sę vir julle, hierdie geslag sal sekerlik nie verbygaan voordat al hierdie dinge gebeur het nie.

    Chris

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by 454 View Post
    Hein

    Dit help nie om oor die getalle te twis nie, dit word algemeen aanvaar dat 2biljoen plus mense Jesus bely. Maak dit 800 miljoen as dit jou sal laat ophou stry, die punt is God se heerlikheid is besig om die aarde te vul.

    Hein dan se jy: "Kom ek lig jou in, alles wat opgeskryf is in Openbaring, is God se fyn uitgewerkte plan."
    Jy sien Hein, dit is nou hier waar ek en jy hemelsbreed verskil. Jy wil my kom vertel dat my Vader vir ons 'n hel op aarde voorberei het, dat elke bose daad van mense, satan en diere, 'n fyn uitgewerkte plan van my Vader is. Jy wil my vertel dat alles wat op aarde gebeur God se plan en wil wees. Dus die dogtertjie wat verkrag en vermink word is God se wil. Die weerlose ou mense wat in hul huis aan die brand gesteek word is Sy wil. Almal wat ter wille van Sy naam onthoof is, was Sy fyn uitgewerkte plan. Ek is eerlik as ek se ek verstaan nie hoe jy my Vader so kan beledig nie. Ek aanvaar dit is 'n populere godsdienstige uitkyk maar waar kom dit vandaan? Ek verwerp dit met minagting.

    Jy kom se God beheer alles volgens Sy fyn uitgewerkte plan. Dus die mense wat nie tot bekering kom nie is dus ook volgens God se plan. Hulle gaan dus nou met die dood gestraf word omdat hulle deel was van God se fyn uitgewerkte plan? Nee Hein, die enigste plan wat ek hier sien is satan wat God se kinders mislei om skeiding tussen hulle te bewerk.

    Openbaring 2 en 3 verwys na 7 gemeentes wat in daardie tyd bestaan het, dit is spesifieke boodskappe aan elkeen gerig.

    Die sewe jaar is reeds verby Hein, dit was vir die Jode in Jerusalem wat 'n vloek oor hulself gebring het. Die sewe jaar verdrukking wat jy so graag wil he, word nerens in die Bybel genoem nie, dit word afgekei vanaf die 70ste week in Daniel 9.

    Hein God laat nie satan toe nie, God het die outoriteit vir Sy kinders gegee en hulle bemagtig die satan wat hulle mislei. Presies soos in die paradys.

    Die gedeelte in Mat 24 verwys na die gebeurtenisse met die Jode 70nc, dit was 'n profesie vir die disipels maar vir ons is dit geskiedenis. Vers 34 se tog duidelik dat die geslag nie sal verbygaan voor dit gebeur nie. Jesus het dit in ongeveer 30nc gese en mooi 40 jaar later gebeur alles net so in Jerusalem. Die tempel is vernietig, die oorgang van offer na genade het gebeur. Die volmaakte offer is gebring.

    Mat 24:34 Voorwaar Ek sę vir julle, hierdie geslag sal sekerlik nie verbygaan voordat al hierdie dinge gebeur het nie.

    Chris
    Ons is nie eens naby mekaar in redenasies en verstaan van Openbaring nie. Ons verskil hemelsbreed. Dus gaan ek nie eerß verder met jou probeer redeneer nie. Dis so maklik soos dit Chris. Sterkte

  4. #14
    Hein

    Jy word mislei. Kom ons begin by die sewe jaar van verdrukking. Waar in die Bybel kry jy dit? Ek vrae dit sommer vir enige-een wat hier lees en die kennis het, verduidelik asb vir my waar dit vandaan kom, ek het dit gesoek maar niks gekry.

    Chris

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 454 View Post
    Hein

    Jy word mislei. Kom ons begin by die sewe jaar van verdrukking. Waar in die Bybel kry jy dit? Ek vrae dit sommer vir enige-een wat hier lees en die kennis het, verduidelik asb vir my waar dit vandaan kom, ek het dit gesoek maar niks gekry.

    Chris
    Daniel 7, 8, 9
    Daar is baie verduidelikings op internet, gaan soek net en jy sal kry. Hoop die volgende kan jou help.

    An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.

    With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

    Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.

    For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

    In summary, the Tribulation is the 7-year time period in the end times in which humanity's decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly

  6. #16
    More Hein

    Eerstens, dankie dat jy bereid is om jpu siening te plaas, dit gee my geleentheid om my eie te ondersoek en te plaas. Soortvan huiswerk.
    Ek gebruik jou gedeelte in rooi lewer kommentaar daarop.

    Eerstens moet ons net kyk na die konteks waarin Daniel skryf. Hy is 'n genangene in Babelonie. Hy bid tot God vir die Jode se verlossing. Dan ontvang hy die gesig.

    Dan 9:1 In die eerste jaar van Daríus, die seun van Ahasvéros, uit die geslag van die Meders, wat koning gemaak was oor die koninkryk van die Chaldeërs,
    Dan 9:2 in die eerste jaar van sy regering het ek, Daniël, in die boeke gemerk dat die getal jare waaroor die woord van die HERE tot die profeet Jeremia gekom het met betrekking tot die puinhope van Jerusalem, sewentig volle jare was.
    Dan 9:3 En ek het my aangesig tot die Here God gerig om met vas, en in roukleed en as, my aan gebed en smekinge te wy.
    Dan 9:4 En ek het tot die HERE my God gebid en belydenis gedoen en gesę: Ag, Here, grote en gedugte God, wat die verbond en die goedertierenheid hou vir die wat Hom liefhet en sy gebooie onderhou,
    Dan 9:5 ons het gesondig en verkeerd gedoen en goddeloos gehandel en in opstand gekom en van u gebooie en verordeninge afgewyk.
    Dan 9:6 En ons het nie geluister na u knegte, die profete, wat in u Naam gespreek het tot ons konings, ons owerstes en ons vaders en tot die hele volk van die land nie.
    Dan 9:7 Aan U, Here, kom die geregtigheid toe, maar aan ons beskaming van die aangesig soos dit vandag is, aan die manne van Juda en aan die inwoners van Jerusalem en aan die hele Israel, die wat naby en die wat ver is in al die lande waarheen U hulle verdryf het, oor hulle ontrou wat hulle teen U begaan het.

    Ek lewer kommentaar in swart.

    An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, Die Jode nie God se kinders nie, m.a.w. nie mense wat deur Jesus gered is nie and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. Wat is die anders as Jesus se offer en oorwinning?
    This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In 457bc het konining Artaxerxes van Persie reeds die bevel uitgevaardig dat Jerusalem herbou moet word.
    In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens. Die Messias moet dus en het ook gekom.

    With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” As ons nou die som maak, 7weke (49 jaar) + 62 weke (434 jaar) =69 weke of 483 jaar, bring dit ons by 27nc, Die jaar waarin Jesus gedoop is. Jesus se kort daarna. "Mar 1:15 en gesę: Die tyd is vervul en die koninkryk van God het naby gekom; bekeer julle en glo die evangelie."

    This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin. Let wel Israel word geoordeel.

    Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
    Nou hier iewers is reeds 2000+ jaar weg?
    Die oorblywende sewe jaar, waarin die Jode God se guns ervaar, begin direk na Jesus gedoop is. Hy is vir nog 3.5 jaar tussen hulle en bedien hulle, dan kruisig hulle Hom. Die finale bloedoffer, die perfekte offer. Dan 9:27 En hy sal een week lank met baie ‘n sterk verbond sluit, en gedurende die helfte van die week sal hy slagoffer en spysoffer laat ophou; en op die vleuel van gruwels sal daar ‘n verwoester wees, en wel tot aan die einde; en wat vas besluit is, sal oor wat woes is, uitgestort word.
    Die Bybel verwys nie hier na 'n dier of antichris nie. Dit is Jesus self wat die offer stop. Daarna is die dissipels nog 3.5 jaar tussen die Jode terwyl hulle die goeie nuus verkondig.



    For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

    In summary, the Tribulation is the 7-year time period in the end times in which humanity's decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly.


    Sal God regtig so 'n belangrike profesie in detail gee en dan 'n 2000 + jaar foutjie maak??

  7. #17
    Hein, ek het toe maar op die internet gaan soek soos jy voorgestel het, die ou verduidelik dit beter as ek.

    by David Padfield

    The 24th chapter of Matthew is one of the most abused passages in the Bible. Premillennialists use this chapter as a springboard for all sorts of fanciful teaching and wild speculation. In this article we want to examine the context of the chapter and see its application to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    On the Tuesday before His crucifixion, our Lord went into the temple and denounced its inhabitants as being the "sons of those who murdered the prophets," a "brood of vipers," and those destined for the "condemnation of hell" (Matt. 23:31, 33). He ends this scathing rebuke with these words: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" (Matt. 23:37-39).

    As Jesus left the temple, "His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple" (Matt. 24:1). While gazing upon the Herod's temple, Jesus told the disciples that the day was coming when "not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down" (Matt. 24:2). After crossing the Kidron Valley, Jesus and His disciples sit upon the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to Him privately and asked, "when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3).

    The destruction of the temple was such a notable event that the disciples could only think of it happening in connection with the second coming of Christ. Jesus clears up their misunderstandings and answers their questions in order. First, He tells them about the various signs which would be given prior to the destruction of the temple. Second, Jesus explains there will be no signs given prior to His return and the end of the world. The events described in Matthew 24 are also recorded in Mark 13:1-37 and Luke 21:5-36.

    Key To The Discourse
    It is my contention that everything spoken in Matthew 24:4-35 relates to the destruction of Jerusalem, and that the remainder of the chapter deals with the second coming of Christ. After explaining all of the signs that would happen prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled" (Matt. 24:34). Jesus warned His followers that Jerusalem would be destroyed within their own generation.

    Joseph Henry Thayer defines the Greek word for "generation" as "1. a begetting, birth, nativity 2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy b. metaph. a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and esp. in a bad sense a perverse race 3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Mt. xxiv. 34; Mk. xiii. 30; Lk. i. 48 xxi. 32 4. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years" (Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament).

    W. E. Vine says the word is "connected with ginomai, to become, primarily signifies a begetting, or birth; then that which has been begotten, a family; or successive members of a genealogy or of a race of people, possessed of similar characteristics, pursuits, etc., (of a bad character) or the whole multitude of men living at the same time, Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48; 21:32 Transferred from people to the time in which they lived, the word came to mean an age, i.e., a period ordinarily occupied by each successive generations, say, of thirty or forty years" (Vine's Expository Dictionary Of Biblical Words).

    A generation is a period of time somewhere between thirty or forty years. Jesus gave the Olivet discourse in about 30 A.D.; Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, the Roman General, in 70 A.D.

    Flavius Josephus
    In this article we will be quoting at length from the first century historian Flavius Josephus, a Jewish priest who led a revolt against Roman oppression in Galilee. He was captured by the Romans at the fall of Yotapata in 67 A.D., and held as a prisoner in Caesarea till 69 A.D. He returned to Jerusalem with Titus in 70 A.D. and became an eyewitness to the final siege of Jerusalem. Josephus was made a Roman citizen by Vespasian. An excellent biography of Josephus by Steve Mason recently appeared in Biblical Archaeology Review (September/October 1997, pp. 58-69).

    Let us now examine the signs Jesus said would appear prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    False Christs
    Jesus warned His disciples that "many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many" (Matt. 24:5). As predicted by Jesus, many false prophets did arise.

    Josephus claimed that, "there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place." (The Wars Of The Jews, 2:3:5).

    Josephus also wrote: "Now it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their efforts with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words." (The Antiquities Of The Jews, 20:5:1).

    Wars And Rumors Of Wars
    The disciples were warned that they would "hear of wars and rumors of wars," and yet Jesus told them, "See that you are not troubled" (Matt. 24:6). Today, every time a firecracker goes off in Jerusalem some preacher will start sweating and tell his congregation that the end of the world is at hand -- you would think the Middle East had never experienced conflict before. It is hard to picture a time more trying than just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Tacitus, a Roman historian, said of this period: "The history on which I am entering is that of a period rich in disasters, terrible with battles, torn by civil struggles, horrible even in peace. Four emperors fell by the sword; there were three civil wars, more foreign wars, and often both at the same time." (The Histories, 1:2).

    Josephus tells of a day in which "the people of Caesarea had slain the Jews that were among them on the very same day and hour [when the soldiers were slain], which one would think must have come to pass by the direction of Providence; insomuch that in one hour's time above twenty thousand Jews were killed, and all Caesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants." (Wars, 2:18:1).

    Famines And Pestilences
    The destruction of Jerusalem was to be preceded by a time of "famines and pestilences" (Matt. 24:7). You do not have to leave the pages of the New Testament to find the fulfillment of this. Luke, writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recorded that, "in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar." (Acts 11:27-28).

    Josephus tells of queen Helena's relief effort for Jerusalem. "Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem; for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to produce food withal, queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others to Cyprus, to bring a cargo of dried figs" (Antiquities, 20:2:5). Tacitus wrote: "Many prodigies occurred during the year. Ominous birds took their seat on the Capitol; houses were overturned by repeated shocks of earthquake, and, as the panic spread, the weak were trampled underfoot in the trepidation of the crowd. A shortage of corn, again, and the famine which resulted, were construed as a supernatural warning." (The Annals of Imperial Rome, 12:43). Pestilences usually accompany periods of famine.

    Earthquakes
    In addition to the havoc brought about by famine and pestilences, our Lord said that great earthquakes would shake the region prior to the siege of Jerusalem (Matt. 24:7).

    J. Marcellus Kik said, "And as to earthquakes, many are mentioned by writers during a period just previous to 70 A.D. There were earthquakes in Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea. It is interesting to note that the city of Pompeii was much damaged by an earthquake occurring on February 5, 63 A.D." (An Eschatology Of Victory, p. 93).

    Fearful Events From Heaven
    In Luke's account of the Olivet discourse he records the warning of Christ that "there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven" (Luke 21:11).

    One night when "there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some great calamities that were coming." (Wars, 4:4:5).

    On another occasion Josephus wrote: "Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet that continued a whole year. Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass armed with iron, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night." (Wars, 4:4:5).

    Gospel Preached To All Nations
    Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem the "gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations" (Matt. 24:14). This came to pass in the first century. Paul wrote to the saints at Colosse and spoke of gospel "which was preached to every creature under heaven" (Col. 1:23).

    "Tradition assigns the following fields to the various apostles and evangelists: Andrew is said to have labored in Scythia; hence the Russians worship him as their apostle. Philip spent his last years in Hierapolis in Phyrgia. Bartholomew is said to have brought the gospel according to Matthew into India. The tradition concerning Matthew is rather confused. He is said to have preached to his own people, and afterward in foreign lands. James Alphaeus is said to have worked in Egypt. Thaddeus is said to have been the missionary to Persia. Simon Zelotes is said to have worked in Egypt and in Britain; while another report connects him with Persian and Babylonia. The evangelist John Mark is said to have founded the church in Alexandria." (Lars P. Qualben, History Of The Christian Church).

    Stand Before Kings And Rulers
    Jesus told the apostles to "watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. And you will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them" (Mark 13:9).

    You do not have to leave the pages of the New Testament to see the fulfillment of this prophecy.

    Peter and John were brought up before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4). Stephen was stoned to death by an angry Jewish mob (Acts 7:54-60). Herod Agrippa "killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also" (Acts 12:2).

    Paul stood before Gallio, proconsul of Achaia (Acts 18:12), Felix, a Roman governor (Acts 24), and King Agrippa (Acts 25). Paul was finally allowed to present his case before Caesar himself.

    Our Lord predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in the 24th chapter of Matthew. In another article we discussed the setting of the Olivet discourse and noted the signs given in Matthew 24 would come to pass within that generation (Matt. 24:36). We want to continue our examination of the signs given prior to the destruction of the city on 70 A.D.

    Abomination In The Holy Place
    Jesus warned his disciples, that, "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt. 24:15-16).

    Josephus, a first century historian, tells of the sad state into which the temple fell prior to the arrival of Titus, the Roman general. "And now, when the multitude were gotten together to an assembly, and every one was in indignation at these men's seizing upon the sanctuary, at their rapine and murders but had not yet begun their attacks upon them Agnus stood in the midst of them, and casting his eyes frequently at the temple, and having a flood of tears in his eyes he said, 'Certainly, it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these bloodshedding villains'" (The Wars Of The Jews, 4:3:10).

    Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem the temple became a gathering place for wicked men. Jesus instructs the disciples that when they see such "abomination of desolation" they were to "flee to the mountains." This passage does not refer in any way to some future return of our Lord. When this "abomination of desolation" took place, those in "Judea" were to flee to the mountains -- not folks living in America today!

    Jerusalem Surrounded
    In Luke's account of the discourse, Jesus also told the disciples that "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her." (Luke 21:20-21).

    Here the disciples are warned that when the Roman army was approaching Jerusalem they were to flee for their lives. Christians received ample warning about the approaching invasion. Josephus said, "And now Vespasian had fortified all the places round about Jerusalem, and erected citadels at Jericho and Adida, and placed garrisons in them both And now the war having gone through all the mountainous country, and all the plain country also, those that were at Jerusalem were deprived of the liberty of going out of the city; Now as Vespasian was returned to Caesarea, and was getting ready, with all his army to march directly to Jerusalem, he was informed that Nero was dead Wherefore Vespasian put off at first his expedition against Jerusalem, and stood waiting whither the empire would be transferred after the death of Nero the Roman empire being then in a fluctuating condition, and did not go on with the expedition against the Jews" (The Wars Of The Jews, 4:9:1, 2).

    When the legions of Rome finally got to Jerusalem they camped at the Mount of Olives (The Wars Of The Jews, 5:2:3). Immediately after their arrival a trench was cast about Jerusalem. A nine mile long wall was constructed in three days that totally enclosed the city (The Wars Of The Jews, 5:12:2).

    Great Tribulation
    Jesus warned His disciples that when the Roman army arrived, those in Judea should flee to the mountains and "let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matt. 24:17-21).

    It is amazing how many people today try to apply these words to a future return of our Lord! What possible difference would it make if Jesus returns on Saturday or Sunday? What difference could it make if He comes in winter or summer? However, if you were trying to flee from an invading army it would make a great deal of difference, for the gates of the city would be closed on the Sabbath day and there would be no way for you to escape. Fleeing from an invading army would be a lot easier if you did not have a nursing child to tend to.

    Sometimes people underestimate to severity of the attack on Jerusalem. Josephus tells how Roman soldiers "went in numbers into the lanes of the city, with their swords drawn, they slew those whom they overtook, without mercy, and set fire to the houses wither the Jews were fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is of such as died by the famine; they then stood in horror at this sight, and went out without touching anything. But although they had this commiseration for such as were destroyed in that manner, yet had they not the same for those that were still alive, but they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many houses was quenched with these men's blood." (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:8:5).

    Over one million Jews died at the destruction of Jerusalem -- another 97,000 were carried away as slaves!

    The Stars Will Fall From Heaven
    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (Matt. 24:29). Premillennialists will often use this passage to "prove" that Matthew 24 is talking about the return of Christ instead of the destruction of the holy city. They will often say, "Just look outside at night -- the stars are still in the heavens right now."

    To those unfamiliar with prophetic language the premillennialists sometimes sound convincing. However, a short trip through the Old Testament will show how similar language was used to describe the fall of monarchs and nations. Look at the following examples of God's righteous judgment and see how he describes the fall of national leaders:

    Babylon (Isa. 13:10, 13)
    Edom (Isa. 34:4-6)
    The Peoples (Isa. 51:5-6)
    Judah (Jer. 4:1-6, 23-28)
    Egypt (Ezek. 32:7-8)
    The Nations (Joel 3:15-16)
    Nineveh (Nah. 1:1-5)
    Israel (Amos 8:1-2, 9)
    The Sign Of The Son Of Man
    In Matthew 24:30, Jesus said, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (NKJV).

    Please notice that Jesus did not say, "And then shall appear the Son of Man in heaven" or "then shall appear the sign in the heaven(s) of the Son of Man." The phrase is literally: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven" (Berry's Interlinear). The phrase "in heaven" denotes the locality of the Son of Man, not the locality of the sign.

    The destruction of Jerusalem itself served as a sign of the fact the Son of Man was ruling in heaven, because it was the fulfillment of His prediction (cf. Deut. 18:20-22).

    One Stone Not Upon Another
    At the very beginning of the Olivet discourse, while looking at the temple, Jesus said, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Matt. 24:2).

    Titus, the Roman general, did not want to destroy the temple. In a speech to the Jewish defenders of the city he said, "I appeal to my own army, and the Jews that are now with me, and even to you yourselves, that I do not force you to defile this sanctuary; and if you will but change the place whereon you will fight, no Roman shall either come near your sanctuary, or offer any affront to it; nay, I will endeavor to preserve you your holy house, whether you will or not." (The Wars Of The Jews, 6:2:4).

    However, after the city was taken, he "gave order that they should now demolish the entire city and temple but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited." (The Wars Of The Jews, 7:1:1). Truly, the words of the prophet came to pass, "Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the temple like the bare hills of the forest" (Micah 3:12).

    Significant Contrasts
    Sign after sign was given so the disciples would know in advance about the destruction of Jerusalem. Warnings were given so men could flee during those abnormal times when a limited, local judgment of God would fall upon Jerusalem.

    We now look for the final return of our Lord, "but of that day and hour no one knows, no, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only" (Matt. 24:26). Jesus will return during normal times and without prior warning. Instead of a limited judgment upon a rebellious nation, "all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats" (Matt. 25:32).

  8. #18
    Hallo Chris. Ek is so bietjie kort met tyd so kannie regtig in diepte ondersoek gaan doen nie. Opsommend toon jy aan die 7 jaar verdrukking bestaan nie , of is reeds verby? Dis vreemd en die heel eerste keer wat ek dit hoor. Baie teen die populere siening in, en iemand is reg... Sal wel later in diepte daarna wil kyk.
    Groetnis

  9. #19
    Hein

    Die populere siening is baie te danke aan een C.I. Scofield(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_I._Scofield) se interpretasie wat hy in die Scofield Reference Bible(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible) weergegee het. Baie mense het dit in "sy Bybel" gelees en aanvaar as die Bybel. Hy was 'n interresante karakter, maar lees gerus self die skakels.

    Die vroeer kerkvaders, soos Luther en Calvyn het anders oor dit gedink.

    Hoekom is die belangrik?

    Mense wat glo dat al die verdrukking nog moet kom leef volgens hul geloof en dan word die verdrukking vir hulle 'n werklikheid. Ons lewe mos uit die geloof? Die siening keer dus dat kinders van God, Sy koninkryk kan ingaan. Jesus het op aarde gese, Sy koninkryk is op hande. Die wat nou glo die verdrukking is oppad en ons gaan eers na Jesus se wederkoms Sy koninkryk kan ingaan wag dus nou vir nog 'n offer, Jesus moet ons weer van die bose en verdrukking kom red.

    Dit kan doodeenvoudig nie waar wees nie. Ons weet die offer op Golgota was die finale offer, ons weet Jesus se opstanding was die oorwinning en ons weet, Jesus se hemelvaart was om Sy plek op die troon in te neem.

    Mat_3:2 gepreek en gesę: Bekeer julle, want die koninkryk van die hemele het naby gekom.

    Mat_5:3 Salig is die wat arm van gees is, want aan hulle behoort die koninkryk van die hemele. (Nie gaan eendag nie, dit behoort reeds)

    Mat_5:10 Salig is die wat vervolg word ter wille van die geregtigheid, want aan hulle behoort die koninkryk van die hemele. (Behoort reeds)

    Mat_6:33 Maar soek eers die koninkryk van God en sy geregtigheid, en al hierdie dinge sal vir julle bygevoeg word. (Dit se tog ons moet eers die koninkryk kry dan sal die dinge kom. Die dinge het ons hier op aarde nodig, nie in die Hemel nie.)


    Mat_11:11 Voorwaar Ek sę vir julle, onder die wat uit vroue gebore is, het daar nie een opgestaan wat groter is as Johannes die Doper nie; maar die kleinste in die koninkryk van die hemele is groter as hy.

    Mat_12:28 Maar as Ek deur die Gees van God die duiwels uitdryf, dan het die koninkryk van God by julle gekom.

    Mat_11:12 Maar van die dae van Johannes die Doper af tot nou toe word die koninkryk van die hemele bestorm, en bestormers gryp dit met geweld.

    Dit is net 'm paar verse in Matheus, die Bybel is vol. Let op die laaste een, bestormers gryp dit met geweld. Wat? Die koninkryk van God! Die wat sit en wag vir die wederkoms gaan dit mis en solank ons dit mis gaan die satan met ons woer-woer speel.

    Sodra ons die koninkryk ingaan, verander alles, ons is saam met Jesus in oorwinning, ons heers volgens Sy bevel, ons maak die aarde vol van Sy heerlikheid en die satan moet vlug waar ons hom weerstaan.

    Ek moet vir almal wat op die forum bydra dankie se. Ek het nooit in eindtyd profesie belang gestel nie en wanneer, daar oor geskryf is, het ek net aangeblaai sonder kommentaar. My houding was eenvoudig dat solank ek gereed is, laat kom wat wil, God is met my.
    Eindtyd drade en videos op die forum het my aandag al meer getrek en ek het die aas gevat. Meeste inligting het my egter gereeld probeer wysmaak dat God self teen my gaan draai, dat God nie aan my kant gaan wees nie, dat My vader my gaan uitlewer aan die antichris en dat die mensdom verdoem was.
    Hoe maak mens daarvoor gereed? Dit het my soeke begin, want dit is 'n totale wanvoorstelling van hoe ek my Vader ken en ervaar. Dit is nie God wat Liefde is nie.
    My Vader is en was getrou, Hy het my bonatuurlik gelei, skrywes laat lees en You Tube videos laat kyk, met slimmer mense as ek laat praat. Die kort weergawe is, ek is gerus gestel, my Vader is nog steeds Liefde en Hy sal Homself aan die heelal openbaar deur Sy kinders.

    Dankie almal, dankie Koning Jesus!

    Chris

  10. #20
    Chris, nie so vinnig nie. Niemand het gese jy is reg nie, ook nie verkeerd nie. Die ander van ons moet self die skrifte gaan ondersoek.
    Net so terloops, weet jy dat Jehova getuies OOK soos jy glo dat die verdrukking reeds klaar plaasgevind het....dis die einste mense wat glo dat Christus en Heilige Gees nie God is nie, asook nie in die hel glo nie....net interessant vir my....
    Wat my bekommerd maak, is dat jy miskien hul videos of lesings gesien het. In elk gevŕl, ek sal eendag aandag daaraan probeer gee.

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